JobLoft.com Blog Entry » JobLoft.com - The sun’s still shining outside the den

JobLoft.com - The sun’s still shining outside the den

Posted in Press Coverage, Events, Dragons' Den by Sunny Mokha on November 22nd, 2006

First off, I want to say Thank You. Thanks to all the JobLoft.com supporters. We will use this opportunity to tell our side of the story. All we ask is for you to share our story with your friends, your relatives, your neighbour… anyone you can think of. We also want to hear your feedback, so feel free to add your comments below. If you’re making a blog post on your site, please use the trackback URL at the end of this posting.

As we always tell everyone, “there’s never a dull moment in the world of JobLoft”. In a nutshell, we had the money, the money was taken back, and we’re using this as a valuable learning experience. Please allow me explain in more detail.

From reading our last blog entry, no one could have predicted that we would end up without closing a deal with the dragons. However, the ending remarks from last blog that “‘success is not a destination…but a journey’, so hop on board, it’s going to be a fun ride” takes on a whole new meaning.

What we need to address first is that what was shown on TV was just a glimpse of what happened in that boardroom on a wonderful Halloween morning. Of course, it was edited for TV, and producers have a magical way making things look and feel a certain way for television. So what is being told here and now is the story of JobLoft.com “telling it how it is”.

From the taping of the deal in August and recalling the last thing Kevin said to us, “As soon as we finishing taping this show … I am in your face … I am in your face … Guaranteed! … and looking forward to it”. Trust us, no one was in our face. And that’s not necessarily anyone’s fault, nor are we blaming anyone. The dragons are busy individuals running their own corporations. A little different of a picture than what we originally imagined. 50% of your business to give up for partners who are tied up in their own businesses doesn’t quite bode well for JobLoft’s future. What ended up happening was that we spent a lot of time with lawyers and at the end of it all, left with a huge legal bill as a result.

Regardless of what the CBC portrayed during the show of Dr. Norrie (our advisor and former professor), the JobLoft team holds the utmost respect for Dr. Norrie, who comes from the high-tech industry, was an entrepreneur himself, and has immense credibility as a business person and as an academic. We are fortunate to have him as a mentor and we are willing to stand up for the best interests of the company. Does he have a vested interest in the company? Absolutely not. He has nothing to gain except to see his former students and now alumni, succeed in the business world as he did.

So what was our advisor trying to say that the CBC couldn’t (or wouldn’t?) show in a span of 3 minutes? Well, the dragons were talking about how to spend the $200,000 on marketing to employers ONLY. Dr. Norrie merely highlighted the fact that we should not focus only on employers but market to both job seekers and employers. Our company is unique, such that we need to market to both ends of the spectrum. Our advisor believes that because the dragons’ businesses require them to market to only 1 set of customers, they may not have been aware of this aspect of our company despite having a copy of our business plan. However, as some of you may saw, the whole thing sort of escaladed into something else.

Now it seems that we have a story of us, starting from scratch; getting investment and having the carpet pulled from underneath; all in a short period of time. We have to say that the outcome is for the best, and this was an excellent learning experience for all involved @ JobLoft. We are now able to seek greater investment, with a proper company evaluation that is not a made-for-TV drama, which will take JobLoft to a global playing field. So what did we do the day after that boardroom meeting? Business as usual.

Recently several leading venture capital and private equity funds have approached us indicating a strong interest in JobLoft. We’re open to ideas and we are not closing the doors on future investors. I guess there is sunshine outside the Dragons’ Den.

For the record, Chris Nguyen, CEO of JobLoft says, “I learned a lot about business when I was at Ryerson…but nothing prepared me for the harsh lessons about what can happen when things go so wrong, so fast. The coolest thing about it though, is that in retrospect I wouldn’t change a thing about what happened and learning is always a good thing. As we complete the search for appropriate investment partners in the coming weeks, I think the shareholders have realized that we are better off with this outcome than the alternative of a fractious board fighting about the right strategy for our company. I would never take an investment offer again without making sure everyone was aligned on the company strategy. No regrets, no hard feelings and my partners and I, and even our company advisors, all wish the Dragons well and hope they can say the same about us…”

We are very excited to hear all of your feedback on our involvement in the show and the turn of events. If you have any comments or questions, please leave us a note below.

If you would like to keep up with JobLoft, please feel free to sign up to either our press release distribution list or our periodic newsletter. Also, if you’re a member of the press and you’d like to know more about our side of the story, please email us at press@jobloft.com.

Tagged with: cbc, democamp, Dragons den, entrepreneur, investment, investors, ITM, James Norrie, Jennifer Wood, Jim Treliving, jobloft, Kevin OLeary, Laurence Lewin, Robert Herjavec, ryerson, toronto, web 2.0

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144 Responses to 'JobLoft.com - The sun’s still shining outside the den'

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Peter @ November 22nd, 2006 at 10:01 pm

Hey guys, just saw what happened on Dragon’s Den. Regardless of what the outcome was, I must congratulate you all on an excellent start-up. Brilliant idea and I hope you guys go far with it.

Its good to know your team learned from this incident. From what the show made it seem, tensions were running high in that room. Its too bad no one spoke up and attempted to calm everyone down, let cooler heads prevail and then re-discuss. Nonetheless, excellent idea, and best of luck in the future!

- Peter (Ryerson SHTM student) !
Chris Vanexan @ November 22nd, 2006 at 10:01 pm

Well done gentleman, I like your format and if you need assistance in obtaining office space as you grow, please do not hesitate to contact me.
anonymous @ November 22nd, 2006 at 10:03 pm

hey joblofters, I just saw the show on CBC… they certainly tried to paint your former prof as a control freak while showing you guys as the blind followers… that’s TV for ya, I guess… Way to stick it to the dragons! You guys’ll be fine: just think of all the free publicity from the show… Good luck!
Rafito @ November 22nd, 2006 at 10:08 pm

Wow! Let me first of all say:BBBBBBAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

The teacher screwed you guys up big time. $200k in your hands and you let it go. Must feel really good huh?

You should of taken charge of that meeting buddy, after all it is your company. YOU GOT OWNED.

Say what you want but you could of had easy investment capital. The direction of the company would of still been in your hands.

You guys arent ready for business, Back to Ryerson it is.
And the teacher.. dear god dont get me started.

Thanks
BiddingTree.com
Wes Johnson @ November 22nd, 2006 at 10:10 pm

Your former professor is a hot head, and as much as I’m sure he’s helped you along the way - it’s a no brainer to realize that you SHOULDN’T INSULT INVESTORS. I’m surprised none of you decided to speak up for the welfare of your company, and I’m doubly surprised that a professor in business didn’t realize something as small as manners and civilized discussion can go a long way. He did a disservice to the Ryerson business school by acting that way, and he harmed you in the process. Just goes to show that knowing about business is one thing, but being civil and a good deal maker is something this academic didn’t learn with his PhD.

Who cares how much school he took, and to insult individuals like the dragons who have made successful lives irregardless of degrees to their name is pigheaded. I’m glad they ripped up that cheque at his expense.

Good luck to you all, with a director like him on board you’ll need it.
Bob @ November 22nd, 2006 at 10:16 pm

Hey i just saw you on the show. for men that have created billion dollar companies you should have listened to them I do relize how good of a company you have and how your company is a great idea and i have full faith in your company going far however i think that you should have listend to these large billion dollar investors especially after the way you four guys handled that meeting you where too quite and where not asertive enough to make a deal and as much as a good idea you guys have I too would have a hard time investing money into four shy guys.
Tim Tang @ November 22nd, 2006 at 10:18 pm

Hello, after reading your entry, and knowing that I only have a snippet of what happened in the boardroom, I think, in the end, the “professor” and the “dragons” may be both right, and both wrong.

Both sides have experience and lessons to share. The professor knows the product and the team longer. The dragons know today’s hiring challenges. It’s disappointing when both sides jump to their own conclusion so quickly.

Good hunting.
Bruce @ November 22nd, 2006 at 10:21 pm

I cant believe what I saw

You may have come up with a good idea for a Web Site….but that clown you call a mentor has just cost you plenty.

The 200k is one thing but you just threw away a chance to have extremely successful business men guide your company. Instead you hang onto an arrogant teacher who is more interested in shooting off his mouth than helping you and your company.

You say in your blog that you have other investors that are interested…well you had better get your teacher under control…or the same thing will happen…no one in their right minds would have anything to do with someone like that.

You just let yourselves down and your employees as well….not very good business practice
Biblot @ November 22nd, 2006 at 10:21 pm

Hi guys sorry to see that, and I wish you the best of luck. However I must ask : for those of us in TV land, we do not know much about Dr. Norrie - except for that brief description you mentioned here. It would be nice to read more detailed background, what business’ he was affiliated with, accolades etc. Right now for the audience out there it’s hard to compare him to some of the dragons who have lots of real world experiences and have made big money. Not to say that Dr. Norrie doesn’t have real world experience, but as portrayed on TV it seems otherwise. - Perhaps you can put up profiles of some of the board members, advisor’s etc.? Give a clearer picture of the story. Again, best of luck to you all.
Adrian S @ November 22nd, 2006 at 10:25 pm

Boys,

What I saw tonight was ridiculous and quite frankly sad. I could write a long response about all the mistakes I witnessed ..but let a me keep it short and simple.

There’s a reason Dr. Norrie is working in a university teaching you guys and not running a multi-million dollar international company- that’s because those who can’t - teach. If I were you I would ask your professor to pony up the 200k that just got pissed away in that meeting because of his actions. I have the feeling he won’t anti up because its probably about three times what he earns a year.

My advice- get rid of Dr. Norrie ASAP - the guy is a schmuck.

I honestly think it was a miracle that you guys managed to grab $200k. Who knows you might find another potential investor who is willing to fork up some cash- but not as long as you have someone as abrasive as Dr. Norrie on your “board” I think your chances are slim.

Good luck fellas….
Ken @ November 22nd, 2006 at 10:30 pm

Wow, is that what they teach you at Ryerson? How to insult investors? To second-guess committed business decisions? How to not let young people make and learn from their own mistakes? How to look bad on national TV? How to totally screw your reputation?

It doesn’t matter what his business point was, his presentation/attitude and timing (when cameras were recording) were mistakes that any junior business person would never make. I hope your professor gives you gold, because he just traded it for your, his and Ryerson’s reputation.
zooman @ November 22nd, 2006 at 10:34 pm

Hey I just saw what happened to you guys on Dragon’s Den. Firstly I think you guys were being taken for a ride by the Dragons. 200k for 50% of the company - give me a major freaking break. They were taking advantage of you!

Secondly while your professor came across as a bit of a hot head and not very professional, I think he felt the same way that I did (see the previous para). It was obvious that he actually CARED about you guys unlike the scumbag dragons.

Take care and good luck.
John @ November 22nd, 2006 at 10:34 pm

Compliments on a job well done!
Thanks for the explanation Chris…The Dragons Den spin on the situation was typically of TV drama…Another post on life and business after the Dragons Den would be good to hear…It appears as though you guys are well on your way…JobLoft is a great idea and everything about the website, the branding, and your guys presentation gives an all around professional image…Smells of Success…All the best!

-John Beddome
Ken @ November 22nd, 2006 at 10:45 pm

Hey Guys,

I know of a law firm that will take your project on speculation. They are a full service firm that specializes in technology. I am certain that they would be interested in representing you. If you would like to know the firm send me an email.

Good Luck
Thomas @ November 22nd, 2006 at 10:45 pm

Dear Jobloft team,

I just saw the episode of Dragon’s Den where your former teacher verbally attacked the men who were there to give your company $200,000 and help you grow your business. Frankly, I felt that your mentor was way out of line and seemed to be determined to undermine your success with the Dragons. He was rude, belligerent and showed a complete lack of a respect towards your investors.

Sometimes a mentor will sabotage his protégés in our to maintain control and influence over them when he sees them on the verge of living out his unfulfilled dreams. If I were in your position, I would remove the mentor from any association with your company, reschedule a meeting with the Dragons, apologize to them and explain to them how you felt indebted to your mentor, had given him too much say over your affairs but are now willing to work with the Dragons and build your business into a success in a true partnership.

You have a wonderful idea but you need guidance, not from your former teacher who wants to ride on your backs and still exert control over you as though you were still students in his classroom, but from experienced, successful businessmen who believe in your idea enough to want to give $200,000 and the benefit of their real-life success.

Good luck,

TJ
Robin @ November 22nd, 2006 at 10:49 pm

When I first saw you guys and the idea you had come up with, it was hard to deny that you would get a deal done with the Dragons. Unfortunately, watching the episode tonight left me hoping that everything works out for you and the company. You have a great idea, 3 investors that know how to run successful businesses and make wise investments, yet you let it slip away b/c of your “mentor”? Does this guy consult you on your daily activities as well? Regardless of what TV did or did not show, what I saw was someone that was rude, and pretty much undercut you all as none of you spoke up. I think its time to cut the ambilical cord with your mentor and press on to hopefully a successful career for jobloft.com.

Good luck,
anon @ November 22nd, 2006 at 11:02 pm

Wow… “those who can’t… teach” - if there wasn’t real example of that before… there definitely is now - in Dr. Norrie!

You guys really screwed this one up huge! These are some of Canada’s most successful business men. Even if the $200G wasn’t considered a huge amount of money, you’re 1) a startup with no money and 2) lacking big time in proper business leadership (this includes the “mentoring” from your so-called business leader). The Dragons offered a solution to both of these problems and while they are taking 50% of your company, they really can’t make a successful company if they don’t have control over it. You guys had the idea but the hard part is to turn that idea into a successful business! This is something they can do! I’m not saying you won’t be successful, you can still find some good investors and leaders to take this idea and make it huge… but does it occur to you that you had already accomplished this? and then blew it? The Dragons probably don’t care as much about you as Norrie does (well, they probably don’t care at all)… but be serious… you’re in the business world now… do you want a multi-billion dollar company or do you want a big hug from an ex-professor when your company fails?

p.s. Norrie insulting the Dragons was poor showing. I realize that Kevin O’Leary is an abrasive guy and throws his own insults during the show - but these are people he’s not in business with. Your “mentor” just insulted people that ARE IN BUSINESS WITH YOU!!! Investors even!!! That was pure stupidity!
Brad @ November 22nd, 2006 at 11:02 pm

The Dr. was rude and obnoxious to speak the way he did. But the one saving grace was that he broke up the deal. You don’t need capital. You shouldn’t take capital.

Your ‘mentor’ was absolutely right about the money. $200,000.00 for 50% was a sweat shop price. The dragons were arrogant, the Dr. was rude and you kids were inexperienced. You were being taken advantage of and the Dr. knew it. You kids looked at the $200k like it was the lottery. It is not a lot of money. It’s hardly anything. Your business is either going to succeed or fail regardless; the money wouldn’t have made a difference, in fact it likely would have made things worse. At least now you have control and the success (or failure) will be yours.
Kitty Litter @ November 22nd, 2006 at 11:07 pm

Kevin O\’Leary on CBC\’s the HOUR last night, even mentioned that as a multi-millionaire you feel obligated to do some good for your community. So in reply to Adrian\’s post above, Dr. Norrie chose teaching, to help other potentials like Chris, Lee, Sunny, and Andy do just as well in the business world as he did. And Dr. Norrie put it damn straight when he called the investment \”a mere $200 000\”. Kudos to him!

You guys did come off as \’shy and naive \’ but analyzing some of the face expressions, not a single mouth dropped as Herjevec ripped up the certified cheque (except for their lawyer hahaha sucker!). It makes me think that some of you actually wanted this to happen….am I right?…..

In the meantime, I\’m SURE you got GREAT PR b/c of dragon\’s den and that you have clients knocking at your site to post before prices go up!
Curtis @ November 22nd, 2006 at 11:15 pm

It is unfortunate that your *mentor’s* fragile ego could not be controlled in a group of successful business-people.

As was stated earlier, getting VC money is easy - getting experience to help drive your company to the next level is not.

You guys are young you will all start dozens of companies, to lose yourself over the first big one is a huge mistake.

Tell your mentor to stay in the classroom where there is no risk and it is easy to quote from a textbook. If this is your leader, you’re already done. After this show, there are 2 dozen companies with a warchest developing search engines that will devour the little orange guy.

Maybe next time
Lee \'buzz\' Liu @ November 22nd, 2006 at 11:23 pm

Thank you for your comments thus far.

We understand that many of you feel that our advisor \’ruined\’ the deal for us. Our advisor and JobLoft also feel it was unfortunate that was how the events unfolded. However, his original intention was valid nonetheless. I\’m sure many of you would\’ve felt differently had you been in that boardroom with us.

Mainly for me, the reason why I think this is a better outcome for JobLoft is that from our perspective, we\’ve gained everything we originally set out as goals for Dragons\’ Den. JobLoft as a brand, has been exposed in many ways more than one. So the fact that the deal was killed by the dragons isn\’t necessarily negative for us.

The main thing for me was the time commitment that we realized we would\’ve had from each of the dragons. Since the taping back in August, we\’ve only met with the dragons twice, once as a preliminary meeting and once in a boardroom as you saw on the show tonight. Out of all the dragons, we\’ve never even met strategically with 2 of the dragons. They\’re just very busy people and having a board meeting once a blue moon and at their convenience just doesn\’t cut it for a 50/50 partnership. Experience, contacts and business knowledge is great but only if you have time to give it.

Lee Liu
Chief Architect of JobLoft.com
Sidra @ November 22nd, 2006 at 11:30 pm

Hey guys -

Tough break. I am sad to hear that you are still protecting James Norrie. I know what it is like to be under the impression that teachers know everything - this is what we are taught all through school - BUT THEY DON”T KNOW EVERYTHING !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is a perfect example of a loudmouth insecure twit who needs to feel superior to everyone around him but clearly knows nothing - let alone how to behave.

These men are successful businessmen who have a lot of invaluable connections (as well as money - to help you start your business).

What I saw today was the most unprofessional, irresponsible and pathetic display of verbal diarrhea I have ever seen. The good “DR” Norrie has made a fool out of all of you and has ruined the business reputation of Ryerson. Stop protecting him and move on……you have a great idea and it will go very far provided you DUMP THE DR.
Cary @ November 22nd, 2006 at 11:37 pm

are you kidding me?? these guys scored LARGE!!! They got national exposure twice this season and out of all of this… they still own their business. That’s for sure a win-win situation. Good luck boys with the orange ties.. no worries you’ll do just fine in business world. It was good that someone brought up issues againts the Dragons. I look foward to seeing how you guys grow.

-Cary
thedrisalwaysright @ November 22nd, 2006 at 11:38 pm

Huzzah for the doctor. He saved you guys!
Curtis @ November 22nd, 2006 at 11:39 pm

“They’re just very busy people and having a board meeting once a month or once every 2 weeks isn’t gonna help us as much.”

Lee, you guys are the day-to-day operations people. They are the visionaries, they give you the ideas and directions. You, as the Chief Architects, Officers and managers of the company must do the grunt work and daily grind.

I wouldn’t be in contact with you too much either (until you had my money and my lawyers gave me the go ahead). It sounds like there was a lot of legal issues to tie up before they would step in with some leadership.

“Experience, contacts and business knowledge is great but only if you have time to give it.”

Wow - I think that is your youth and inexperience showing. In business, a $5000.00 deal can take months, never mind $200,000.00. Deal take time I am sure you’ll learn this.

Your mentor should have prepared you better. YOU decided to give up 50% of the company to get what you needed. It upsets me to read people discrediting the Dragons because they wanted to make money. Remember, they have the contacts to get BIG deals done, something your mentor obviously does not have otherwise, you would not need VC money.
Sulemaan @ November 22nd, 2006 at 11:44 pm

Did anyone else watch the entire show? Where they showed clips of how abrasive and arrogant other investor seekers thought the Dragons were?

The Dragons expect courtesy and professionalism yet they failed to show it to others. How hypocritical. I don’t care how much money they have.

Someone (namely Dr. Norrie) had the moxie to call the Dragons up and everyone thinks he was rude? Perhaps but television editing is an incredible thing so be careful not to jump to conclusions.

I also think the Dragons all got pissed off not so much because the professor was rude but because he challenged them on their planned strategic direction. That says a lot about the Dragons.

Kudos to the Jobloft team for sticking by him. I saw you guys at Casecamp and was impressed. I’m also impressed that loyalty still counts for something, which appears to be a rare commodity in business.

This professor stood by and helped Jobloft.ca for who knows how long with what appears to be little or no financial gain. To say he has an ulterior motive or jealous is complete nonsense.

And if the Dragons were that close to handing over $200k after all kinds of due diligence, Jobloft.ca has merit. There will be other investors.
Omar Ismail @ November 22nd, 2006 at 11:44 pm

Congratulations on everything you’ve accomplished so far. You guys have a really great idea.

Looking at everything, the Dragon’s Den show and the resulting coverage is worth a lot more than $200,000 would’ve bought you in marketing, so you’re already out way ahead.

The Canadian public in general, and even the investment community, needs to start recognizing the importance of the Web. There are a lot of talented and smart people making some great services here, it’s not all out in California.Good luck with everything and I look forward to seeing it all work out for you guys.

Omar Ismail
CoFounder, www.productwiki.com
Reef @ November 22nd, 2006 at 11:45 pm

Some people on this board are so naive. Business is a battlefield - Dr Norrie was spot on with his reaction with the dragons. Remember the dragons are rude and ruthless people too - has anybody been to a boardroom meeting, it can get ugly sometimes. The dragons were taking you for a ride, and the mentorship from the dragons people are mentioning you would have received, is an illusion. They smelt a good deal and your naivety something they could exploit. $200k is nothing for the dragons, especially for a great business start up like jobloft - it is an absolute steal. The deal not going ahead is very good for you guys.

I wish you every success with the business, you guys deserve it!
Tuan Hua @ November 22nd, 2006 at 11:46 pm

Hi guys,

I’m glad to see that the deal fell apart. Kudos for sticking up for your mentor (as I would have done the same). To give 50% of the company for a “measly” 200k with such a great idea in jobloft is just not worth it. I felt bad how your team got eaten by the dragons in the den (giving up 50%). Good for you guys and I think you are in a much better position now, especially with the publicity. I’m rooting for you guys as a start up myself in the GTA. Good luck team jobloft!
TK @ November 22nd, 2006 at 11:46 pm

“So the fact that the deal was killed by the dragons isn\’t necessarily negative for us.”

…well, you’re going to say something like that aren’t you?…I mean it’s all about saving face now that the $$$$ is gone and you’re stuck with “Dr.Who” rather than 3 mulitmil.$$$$businessmen and we’ve all seen it on TV.

I didn’t see Dr. Norrie standing outside his multimil$$$$home in the shows opening sequence did you?

1 word, not an eloquent one, but it sums it up….”DUH!”
Perry @ November 22nd, 2006 at 11:48 pm

Hello Jobloft team,

I completely echo the response above from TJ. Contact the Dragon’s and apologize - FAST! Then, with respect, tell your former teacher, if that’s how he plans on “helping” you take your business to the next level, you no longer need his help. My first question is will you be okay if your business doesn’t grow like you were looking for? Now, fast forward ten years down the road, are you going to regret not trying to make amends with the Dragon’s?

Good luck. You’re going to need it if you keep that professor. Remember, those who can’t - teach.

Perry
Brian Yee @ November 22nd, 2006 at 11:51 pm

Hey guys,

I see what you guys were going though and it’s hard for other people to comprehend what happened especially if they don’t know James. James is very knowledgeable and a smart guy. People don’t understand that he’s not only an academic, but he has succeed in the business world as well. One example, LavaLife.com..

I can’t say if I would have went with the dragons or with James on this one. He too is my mentor and I have the utmost respect for him. You guys and I know, that he only cares about you and want what’s best.

I think I would have tried to work something out with both of them. Since life and the business world is a journey with a wealth of experiences/lessons to be learnt… I would have liked to work along side with the dragons and James. To take in as much as possible and have these business professionals bounce ideas off one another. And as a whole, to try to see from ALL angles, what the best thing for JobLoft would be.

Best of luck guys, everyone in ITM is cheering you on.
Brian Yee
Lee 'buzz' Liu @ November 22nd, 2006 at 11:57 pm

“Wow - I think that is your youth and inexperience showing. In business, a $5000.00 deal can take months, never mind $200,000.00. Deal take time I am sure you’ll learn this.

Your mentor should have prepared you better. YOU decided to give up 50% of the company to get what you needed. It upsets me to read people discrediting the Dragons because they wanted to make money.”

Curtis-

At first, the 50% for $200k was a good deal because we were expecting ALL 5 dragons to pull their weight, and not only 3. That was the only reason why I originally agreed to it. I’m not discrediting the dragons because they want to make money- I don’t know how you got that. I actually do have a lot of respect for them, especially Robert, who was probably the most helpful to us during the deal and even met up with us following the fallout.

$5,000 deals does not take months, and if it did, we’d be bankrupt today. I don’t know what kind of business you’re in, nor will I speculate. Because I dont know how your business works. And I seriously believe that if you were in my shoes, you’d understand my position. I may be young and inexperienced but I have good intuition to know when something feels right and when something does not. After all, we’ve made it this far and in the end, that’s all anyone can really measure.
John @ November 23rd, 2006 at 12:00 am

For those of you who think Dr. Norrie cannot afford to invest 200k from his pocket, see http://e-ventureconsulting.com/founder.htm … I\’ve recognized his “modus operandi” of opening up with a question that is meant to put you in defensive. Anyone there with a business degree? Anyone?
Curtis @ November 23rd, 2006 at 12:09 am

I used $5000.00 as an arbitrary figure, it can be $5,000,000 for all intents and purposes. But yes, even a $5000.00 deal can take months.

What are you charging? 299 per month? That is almost 17 months to get $5000.00, so you can’t tell me $5K does not take months! These guys can contact 10 large corps and sign them up in one week at 10 times you current rate, that was the point I was trying to make. Can you guys even get past the secretary

Good luck. Cool idea, I’m sure we’ll see more if it in the near future.
Gord @ November 23rd, 2006 at 12:16 am

Dr. Norrie’s conduct in the boardroom motivated me to search for more information about your story. I don’t believe the good doctor is exactly as he is described in this profile, “As a qualified and experienced HR Professional”…see domain, http://jnorrie.cgpublisher.com/. Keep him away from my HR department! He must of been really upset with the deal you guys made with the dragons and didn’t do a very good job of hiding this. Mr. Norrie has terrible manners and doesn’t know how to effectively deal with others, dump him he doesn’t set a good tone for the company.

Gord
Thomas @ November 23rd, 2006 at 12:22 am

here’s my two cents…

from the get-go, the attitude in that boardroom (as well as the entire show this season) was definitely biased…these investors definitely think that their way is the only highway but in truth, it’s a narrow one lane road! their attitude toward all the inventors was condescending and i.m.h.o, not warranted for a “measly” $200K investment.

the concept behind jobloft is one that will take these boys much further than the boys in the boardroom could offer and dr. norrie had the balls to point that out…yeah professor norrie! kudos to his insight and conviction to make this team a success. good luck with everything down the road…not that you need it:)
James @ November 23rd, 2006 at 12:27 am

Some people might think 200k is not a lot or that it is, in either case it was an initial (possibly one of many? not privy to meeting minutes) investment that at the early stages of any business development is always and should be always welcome. I still believe good business is based 60/40 in favour of good politics/faith versus theory and regardless of your professor’s credentials and the producer’s editing of the show it still was pretty evident that your mentor is using your means of living as some vehicle or exercise in business ethics. The main objective of any business is to make money not a better world (it can as a secondary objective). Not to say that you didn’t learn anything from him but that is your company and he technically should have no say at a board meeting if he has no vested interest (either by employment or investment). That said I think you guys will be very successful, just remember advice is just that, advice; make the final decision amongst yourselves.
Murtaza Hasni @ November 23rd, 2006 at 12:37 am

It’s unfortunate that things didn’t work out, but just because it wasn’t a story book ending on TV doesn’t mean that all has been written out for you guys. It’s obviously difficult to balance personal loyalty with prudent business decisions, but hopefully each of you will be better off for it.

Reading Sundeep’s entry, it’s clear that you guys have good heads on your shoulders and remain steadfast in your resolve to making Jobloft a continued success, which I’m sure it will be. The fact that the lessons haven’t been lost on you despite this set back is a good sign that you’ll have the final say of Jobloft’s legacy, and not others. If five prominent business people saw value in your business once, it’s a good sign that others will see it too in the future – it’s just a matter of time, not chance. Don’t be discourage and begin worrying about what others say they would have done in your position – hindsight is 20/20 as they say. I wish for the best for all of you, and look forward to seeing how things work out.

- Murtaza Hasni, Ryerson Computer Science Student (and former Crestview P.S Alumni)
vt @ November 23rd, 2006 at 12:56 am

i just saw the show u guy’s were awesome in the boardroom and yur teacher was even better the way he stood up to those crooks , yur proffessor was right u guy’s were getting robbed the dragon’s needed yur company to help save them million’s/yr on job ad’s and recruitment companies 200,000 is pennie’s to them. thank yur proffesor for protecting u guy’s, there are alot of crook’s out there. if the dragon’s were real entreprenuer’s they would come up with their own ideas and work hard for it instead of using thier money to buy other peoples idea’s.
Justin @ November 23rd, 2006 at 1:03 am

Its really easy to put down Dr. Norrie after seeing what was played on television tonight. The fact is, we did not see the full meeting and what the dragons said to provoke this professional. In the clip, we see Dr Norrie say things that aren’t polite but there was reasons for him to say that. I think we should not judge him withought knowing what truly happened. You can read a bit more about him at this link : http://www.ryerson.ca/itm/fcty/norrie/norrie.html or type his name in google and you will get many hits..

I uploaded the clip from dragons den on YOUTUBE for those who are interested in viewing it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdbThklcD_8

Good Luck to all the Job Loft team,

Justin
Rebecca @ November 23rd, 2006 at 1:05 am

Hi Job Lofters,

I am really disappointed… in both you and your professor. I am a Ryerson student taking an entrepreneurship course and I feel horrible. Your professor’s actions (and your inaction) has discredited your business.

I would recommend be very weary of academics, they can point you in the right direction in the classroom - but in the real world it is up to you to make decisions. Be accountable, in the end you allowed a professor to insult YOUR investors. Leave the classroom, get far away from your professor and go on your way.

You still have an excellent idea but need some serious “real world” business skills. Learn from this, grow stronger, and don’t get caught up in this issue (your competition will take advantage of this opportunity).

Best of luck. Rebecca.
Rohan Jayasekera @ November 23rd, 2006 at 1:06 am

I’d like to congratulate you JobLofters on acting professionally in difficult circumstances. (Funny, isn’t it the young people who are supposed to be hotheads while the older ones are the professional ones?) Your ability to stay focused on the business will continue to be one of your strengths.

I’m happy to see you continue steadily growing your business, without being dependent on board members who shoot from the hip because they don’t have time for anything else. Keep up the good work.

Rohan Jayasekera
Fellow TorCamper, and co-founder, Sympatico
showmemoula @ November 23rd, 2006 at 1:07 am

Hey guys,

Good job on the show tonight. It’s unfortunate that your mentor lost you the deal. He lacks professionalism in a business world. I wish you would have taken that $200k. That would have been a huge chunk of money to start up your website, not to mention the free business advice from successful millionaires. Jobloft is a great idea but look at the big picture. Once you start growing this company something else will come up. Look at the success of Google, and Youtube etc. The dragons each have their claim to fame but they are always looking for another chance to make a quick buck. We all are. You have great morals and values, but you need to be a little more shrewd as well. Best of luck to you guys! I think you have a lot of fans and came through as winners in the end.
JY @ November 23rd, 2006 at 1:17 am

Hi guys,

I am the Head of Entertainment Business Management at a private college in Vancouver, and also a professor of New Media and Film law at BCIT. Our program specializes in exactly what the title says it does. I am a middle-aged Asian-Canadian, and the four of you really remind me of myself during my early days studying Commerce at UBC, and also of many of my own entrepreneurially-minded students. I am definitely familiar enough with television to understand the power of editing, and I hold no judgment on which side of the business deal was right or wrong. However, as a fellow business professor, I found it very surprising that your mentor dressed and presented himself in a manner that seemed so lacking in professionalism in front of such a large audience (he clearly knew he was being filmed). I would have expected someone experienced in business negotiations to know how to keep a professional demeanor regardless of how well or not well the business deal was going. I would genuinely like to hear your response to this if my perception was wrong about him, but if he is really like that all the time, you absolutely should widen your circle of mentors.

-JY, Vancouver, BC
Gord @ November 23rd, 2006 at 1:19 am

Yo!
Any of you who know Professor Norrie - or the red BMW that he drives in summer or his Lexus SUV in winter - realize its probably no longer about the money for him - DUH. This guys loaded…

I’ve taken two classes from him at Ryerson - one of the best profs in the place. He’s a bit of a tough ass and pretty arrogant but he sure knows how to teach business and he’s never afraid to call it out. Funny as hell. If he really mentors you guys for free - maybe you should give him 50% of the company instead of the Dragons - at least he seems to care.

My word says the Dragons are pissed that someone had the guts to argue with them. While nobody likes to feel stupid, sometimes we are and Dr. J had the guts to point it out. So rip up that cheque Robert - your going to regret when jobloft hits it big and I wanna see how you look then! DUH!!!
Katlyn @ November 23rd, 2006 at 1:29 am

Hello Job Loft!!!
First off, trying to sign with them was a terrible mistake. Going on the show was great publicity for your website!! They are very greedy guys who tried to control your company by making you guys feel inferior to them. Your teacher deserves a pat on the back for saving your butts. He is for sure on the right direction. Whose going to want to post on your website if there’s no one for them to post to. Don’t let others dictate how you want your business to run!! Good luck and great site!!! It’s just what us jobseekers needed!!!
maddy @ November 23rd, 2006 at 1:48 am

I would just like to make a few things clearer to everyone. If you take a closer look no one saw the entire meeting in the boardroom. They showed clips. Very biased if you ask me. Really $200 000 isn’t that much money especially for the arrogant dragons. They are trying to take advantage of people. The teacher seems like a very respectable and knowledgeable person. He is only looking out for the best interests of job loft. I don’t think most of the people have a very good grasp of the business world. Like I said before they showed the clips they wanted and the dragons were trying to take advantage of these guys. I watched the show once and never will again. I find it ridicules the way the dragons feed their egos by putting down others.
vt @ November 23rd, 2006 at 1:59 am

i want a job at jobloft man
Rick Spence @ November 23rd, 2006 at 2:54 am

People seem to be treating this as if it were a hockey fight - boo, hiss, let’s root for our team! But like most issues in business, this is much more complex than it seems.

First of all, none of us knows what really happened. To call Dr. Norrie abrasive and unprofessional on the evidence of a few-seconds of a heavily edited TV program is to be way too naive about the television medium.

And to say the Jobloft founders were about to be ripped off by the dragons is quite a stretch. Let’s see: they agreed to the deal and then worked on it for three months. Sounds like they had lots of time to stop it if they’d wanted to. And as someone pointed out above, the dragons would hardly put their best efforts into the company before the deal was done. Call them whatever names you like, but they ain’t stupid.

The sad thing, to me (and I may be wrong, because I know only what I saw on TV) is that the Jobloft “boys” didn’t seem to do much to try to put out the fire. The young but confident entrepreneurs we saw on TV were quiet as mice when their mentors started acting like children. As an investor, I don’t know which would have worried me more: their lack of faith, or their (apparent) failure to speak up one way or the other.

It looked to me like the founders didn’t mind the deal falling apart. If that’s the case, I think they should have brought up their concerns earlier in the process, and with the dragons personally. (If they did do that, there was no evidence of it in the show.)

The great thing is that the foursome put themselves on the map (so to speak) and learned some huge lessons early on. Not a bad outcome. But communicating more thoroughly with their prospective partners might have kept things from turning so ugly - and that’s a lesson I hope they will take to heart in all their future dealings.

Rick
Canadian Entrepreneur Blog
http://canentrepreneur.blogspot.com
Zak @ November 23rd, 2006 at 3:51 am

I just saw the program on CBC this eveing. I am glad that you still prusuring your dreams! Way to go. I really admire you for sticking to your ideals and principles. I thought that the “dragons” were trying to take advantage and did not like the way they reacted when someone questioned their methods. Just because they have been sucessful in the past does not mean that their ideas will work another time.

Keep up the good work!
Anthony @ November 23rd, 2006 at 7:47 am

Do you guys realize that many web developers out there including myself could throw something similar in just a few weeks, but not many of us have the opportunity to join forces with such powerful, proven and talented individuals as the Dragons? There were at least two Dragons that could have used your services and I believe that’s what interested them the most about your venture. Although $200,000 isn’t much money when it comes to hi-tech venture capital, but it was a good injection of cash for a couple of graduates that would make a faction of that working for the “man”.

You must have known that your mentor would have had some impact on the presentation to the Dragons or you would have brought him or at least mentioned him during your presentation to the Dragons. I do agree with your professor that the money the Dragons brought to the table wasn’t worth the 50% of the company, but you always have the ability to buy that back from the investors when you have the financial standing. One thing your mentor did forget to take into account is the cost of having these Dragons on your board and the potential income from their experience and connections in the industry.

What I did see from the TV is some Dragons being Dragons who bullied you into taking the $200,000 for 50%, but what I saw come from your mentor was not acceptable. He attacked the Dragons at a personal level questioning their knowledge of doing business. In my years of life experiences, book smart people can be really dump when it comes to real life situations and it’s those who have street smarts that you want in your team. In the end, your professor blew it for you and I hope you do the right thing and keep him as your professor that you visit from time to time.

Your professor used his education background to insult the Dragons and then he goes on to tell them that their approach to focus marketing on the companies instead of the individuals was wrong. Tell me this, where would your company be if all the companies suddenly pulled out or found a better service? Have you heard the saying “If you build it, they will come”? In your case that refers to building the company portfolio and the individuals will come to your service. It’s the businesses that pay your salaries in the end and not the person looking for work.

I wish you luck and I hope that your mentor made the right decision for you. As I commented in the opening, there are many web developers including myself out there that could offer the same or better service than you provide. And many of us could dream of having the opportunity your profession just ripped up and tossed in the garbage for you.
Paul @ November 23rd, 2006 at 8:38 am

As I read the comments above, I was amazed how people were willing to judge and take sides on an issue that was portrayed in the span of 4 minutes on national television. What didn’t we hear said? People go to say things and then the clip goes somewhere else…editting by the CBC to slant things obviously creates a bias - maybe in favour of the Dragons?

If you google Dr. Norrie’s name, you would find that he has lots of business experience and while he was portrayed as confrontational during the show, any of us students know that Dr. Norrie challenges you to go below the surface and get to the real issue or discover the real facts in a case. Even if you feel stupid for not having gotten there in the first place!

As a student at Ryerson, I personally would it that we have professors who are willing to give of their time and experience to coach and challenge me. They actually help make sure my business has every chance to suceed - and that’s cool.

I transfered to Ryerson and really wish that we had more professors like Dr. Norrie - why be embarassed? Celebrate that he is able to challenge the Dragons, and us, to be the best that we can be. They’re not gods - just greedy business men who needed someone with courage to put them in their place!
jules @ November 23rd, 2006 at 8:45 am

Congratulations JobLofters! I’m relieved that you were able to work your way out of the Dragon’s deal. After the original episode, and after seeing how the Dragons perfrom with other start-ups, I was convinced you were being taken advantage of, and that the deal offered to you wasn’t in your best interest, or the interest of the company.

Good luck with your new ventures and new supporters!

-jules
James @ November 23rd, 2006 at 8:53 am

Love the concept and good luck on your venture.
Secondary education is a wonderful thing however having an academic as an advisor is a dangerous way to drive a start up. Look at all successful startups — entreprenuerial spirit, passion, common sense. Text books, theories, schooling support those characteristics, they WILL not on their own create success. Perhaps the dragons were not the best way to go, and perhaps CBC did cut out the main message, however be very, very careful on having an academic as an adivisor, If you want this to be a student project, then fine, go with what you have — if you want it to become a driving, growing, impactful business then find a different mentor.
Joe @ November 23rd, 2006 at 10:33 am

Guys……
you have a great idea here with this website service, but to insult investors is the wrong thing to do…..one of you should have had the sense to stand up and tell norrie to keep quiet……how can anyone do business with you if you’re going to insult them…..good manners, integrity…that is what makes businesses run smoothly…..you had $200k in your hands….and you let it go…..a “learning experience?”……i guess, if that’s what makes you sleep better at night……

good luck.
Earl Colby Pottinger @ November 23rd, 2006 at 11:24 am

I can’t believe the people defending the professor’s rant.

If he thought it was a bad deal, he should have just said so! Period! That was a real reason to not link-up with the dragons, not their education background.

A rant where a person tell multi-millionaires that they don’t know what they are doing because they don’t have business degrees is just plain stupid. And the fact that the students just sat there instead of trying to calm down either the professor or dragons does not show them as business leaders.

These students if they don’t want to cut the professor loose must at-least must keep him out of the boardroom. Is it their company or his?

As for people pointing to his past businesses - they sound like internet bubble ones, where people made tons of money selling investors on ideas that could not make money. Otherwise why is he not footing the money to JobLoft himself.

And as for his present business I see nothing posted to show he is into the big bucks here either. Again, if he is making so much why is he not fronting the money?

JobLoft will still grow, but maybe not fast enough to beat back the others entering this market. If it is going be their company they need to get the professor under control no matter whether he is doing it for them or himself.
Tom @ November 23rd, 2006 at 11:35 am

Hi I work for a very large company that is somewhat in your field. I will say this…

I don’t blame the Dr. cause he shouldn’t be there to begin with!!! He is terrible, and is not a business person. To show boat his PhD like he is some King? Who cares!!!! Bottom line is he isn’t making any money for you yet and probably never will with that attitude.

As for the Dragon’s yes they did take you for far too much as your business has the potential of becoming very large as the one I work for…50% of the company for $200,000? You can make that in a week if you start hunting down clients…and spend less time listening to the Dr.

If I blame anyone for all this…I blame you guys. Sorry! To succeed in business you have to make decisions, and clearly you guys are allowing others to make those decisions for you. You have been trained, the idea is there, and now you are lacking one thing the Dragon’s have…and that is Entrepreneur BALLS! The Dragon’s could have helped you guys grow these much needed balls or at least guide you in the right direction. But as for the Dr I don’t think they teach this in a book.

Best of luck, but no worries as we will probably buy you in the future.
KunTou Pao @ November 23rd, 2006 at 11:41 am

I agree with -JY, Vancouver, BC
Your arrogant professor would fail the 101 of business school and did not deserve the high respect from you , young bright students with your potential investors driven away by him in such a ill-conceived manner .
Your professor forgot entirely that business/management was about managing people, and not insulting people.
Business school can only provide you with all the analytical tools that you would need but not the business decision and entrepreneurship. The most optimum solution does not necessary lead to the best result.
What is his intention in asking anyone with a business degree? What did he want to imply?
This only reflects his ignorance of the fact that most of the successful entrepreneurs do not have a course in business.
Business schools (in existence for less 100 years in the long history of business) churn out great employee and CEOs but not entrepreneurs.
Even if you do not like the deal, present it in good etiquette and break it amicably.
One more friend is better than one more enemy!
You are right to see the need to align the interest of investors before signing the contract but it can be done with persuasion and not insults.
Your professor deprived you more than the fund that the Dragons would bring. It is the valuable mentorship, experience, entrepreneurship and connections from the Dragons that got driven away.
Don’t be misled by the motion that the Dragons are greedy.
Remember that it is “Greed” that drives this capitalistic world of business.
You are there to protect your own interest (and the Dragons protecting theirs) while trying to swim in this world of greed.
Vince @ November 23rd, 2006 at 12:13 pm

Good Morning JobLoft,

Remember one thing, you can never succeed without failing and just chalk that one up as a lesson learned.

As the co-founder of Infocheck Ltd. (now a First Advantage Company) I have dealt with many potential VC firms and know exactly what you guys went through. We ended up turning them all down as the fit wasn’t right at that time.

We were only 23 when we started this company and we quickly became Canada’s leader in the background checking industry within a few years. After 7 years of hard work (and many mistakes), we were offered to sell our company as the timing was just right!

Always trust your own instincts as many entrepreneurs have made their successes in different ways. Even though you guys are young, you know your business better than anyone else so stick to your guns.

Vince
Bobby @ November 23rd, 2006 at 12:28 pm

Hey Joblofters,

I saw the update last night and couldn’t believe my eyes on how fast your situation disintegrated.

Here are my thoughts:

First, your professor did you a major disservice. Things may have been different in the boardroom than what we saw, but his attitude could never be justified. It is not his position at that point to put down the dragons for the amount of money/control that was negotiated. If you didn’t think it was fair, you shouldn’t have accepted. Both sides should have been looking forward, not backward.

Second, for your prof to ask three established business people if they have degrees of any sort is crazy. What does it matter? And if it did matter to him, he could have done one minute of internet research and found that out. But to ask them in that fashion, are you kidding me? (By the way, Kevin O’leary received his MBA from the Richard Ivey School of Business in 1980).

Third, your point regarding the amount of time from the Dragons is completely valid, but you guys really should have done more homework before making the deal. Having one or two investors invested, probably gets you more time than 5 people invested for $40,000 each. But if that had been the major reason for killing the deal (before the whole professor episode), it would have been totally understandable.

I hope this go well for you guys in the future. But you guys have to be your own men and make your own decisions. I respect your loyalty to your former prof, but in that situation, you need someone who will help you build something really great, not someone who will be a potential liability.

All the best in the future guys, and if you need any help from a business grad with retail connections, let me know.
Andrew @ November 23rd, 2006 at 12:49 pm

Wow… I was impressed when I saw you guys beat the dragons.

Now you really did beat them. Your teacher/mentor was right. Your company is worth far more than the $200,000 offered. I am also sure you have come out with thicker skins and plenty of life lessons.

Stick with what you know and the people you trust. You guys are as good as the company that you carry.

I can honestly say that I did not like your teacher/mentor’s approach, but I think he had your best interests in mind and I do think he was right.

Anyways… you guys will rise stronger and smarter with this experience.

Good Job.
paul @ November 23rd, 2006 at 12:55 pm

Hi guys, what an interesting story you’ve got. Some more armchair advice for you, from someone also in a tech startup. First, $200k for 50% is chump change. You’re better off without it, and living on the cheap while you bootstrap it, or to try to get a better deal, which sounds like what you’re doing.

Second, I think your prof is wrong about the business plan. Getting job seekers to come to your website is a fairly straightforward marketing problem: pay-per-click on targetted sites like Myspace, SEO, job fairs, university job boards, high schools, viral marketing. It’s not like you’ve got a difficult product to sell. People need jobs. You don’t need guys like the dragons to help you execute that part of it, just a relatively small budget and a lot of legwork.

The other part of it - the one the dragons were advocating - is more difficult. You’re talking about getting into big corporations, ones with entrenched HR processes, and getting them to buy in. The dragons would have helped get you inside. Oh well, I hope you’re good at cold-calling.
Gerard @ November 23rd, 2006 at 12:57 pm

Hello

I do not know why people think that 200.000 $ canadian is a lot of money, I do not know why people think that you can have 50% of a company by just paying 200.000$ Canadians. This amount is ZERO.
And much more you have No control, boys you are lucky that you have your ‘’ mentor'’ with you, but I have to say that the wors he used was not good, but the ideas was right.

Good luck and we are waiting you web site translate in French.

Hugues,
manager
www.webpresent.biz
Raj Vijayakumar @ November 23rd, 2006 at 1:00 pm

Hey Guys,

I have got to say that I am extremely pleased that Dr. Norrie stepped in to stop that deal from going through. When I had viewed the initial Dragon’s Den show the first words out of my mouth when I heard the deal was and I quote, “They are being ripped off.” That is something that Dr. Norrie quiet frankly stated in that meeting.

Furthermore, being an ITM student myself and graduating this April I know what an excellent Prof. and mentor Dr. Norrie can be. Whatever anyone else may have said below it is ridiculous to judge a person’s character after viewing a TV show that has the capabilities to “change up” a pre-recorded show through editing. It is amazing what you can do since I have experience in this category.

Keep up the hard work and good luck in your future endeavours!

Cheers,

Raj
Tim Wells @ November 23rd, 2006 at 1:05 pm

Hi guys, wow, that was something else.
If the plan was to figure out a way to goad the Dragon’s into killing the deal, then things went well.
But if that was not the intent, then something went haywire. The Dragon’s who came down to close the deal were not impressed, and I hope you guys will try to make personal ammends with them.

Its clear the Dragons would not put time into the deal, until it was closed, for good reason, as things can blow up. After the deal was done, you could have been in THEIR faces, and got them to call CEO’s of other companies, to close deals for JobLoft.

It appears to me that you guys wanted to kill the deal, as you changed your minds after the TV show. I think you made a big error. After all, each Dragon only had as much as each of you, and you would have been able to use their contacts to close deals.

I think the Professor is sadly misplaced. I would not work with someone with that type of attitude. Guys with attitudes like that, end up either working out of their garage, as no one can stand them. They also end up working in a unionized teaching position, where they can’t be fired.
Susan @ November 23rd, 2006 at 1:17 pm

Obviously this site is mainly stacked w comments from friends. You all came off terribly inexperienced and did not demonstrate leadership. Your trust in your professor shows a real lack of judgement on your part. Poor Ryerson, that arrogant man is a PR debacle for them, and has probably ruined much of your chances. Good luck on future deals, since you just wasted the time, money, and experience of high-profile professionals who trusted you. It MAY be a great idea, - and probably one that’s easy to duplicate, now which is just as well because Individually and collectively, you obviously do not have what it takes.
Sue @ November 23rd, 2006 at 1:30 pm

If you feel so strongly that the four of you were BULLIED during your pitch,bullied in to accepting money, no less - after consulting amonst yourselves not once but TWICE - what does it say about YOU?
Gregg @ November 23rd, 2006 at 1:36 pm

You guys might be better off without the Dragons…but I would try to cut ties fom Mr. Phd. ASAP.
Howard @ November 23rd, 2006 at 2:16 pm

I almost fell off my chair watching the show last night. I’ve been in the same business and also in the software industry so I have a couple of comments.

First, it’s a shame that your egotistical professor couldn’t keep his mouth shut. Please tell him if he doesn’t know by now that he just embarrassed himself on national TV, among his peers, and now further on the internet. If he doesn’t, his ego must still be blinding the obvious fact that he has no relevant business experience and has never made any real money in his life. I guess feeling so small in that boardroom in front of successful business people, he had to flash his PHD. Pitiful.

Most will agree that $200,000 will not get you very far (marketing will chew up all of it), but what you probably lost is the invaluable backing of these business minds and the vast network of contacts and resources they have.
Still..200k is 200k that your company does not have.

I hope the publicity from this show will land you additional investors, because your site looks good. It’s not new concept but if you have created a technical solution that is better than your competitors than investment money will come with or without the dragons. However, with the doc on your board he’ll probably screw the next deal as well..
mooney @ November 23rd, 2006 at 2:33 pm

I really felt bad for you for losing that investment. Your prof may have a few valid points, but what is very obvious is that with all his knowledge, income and experience, he pales(Big time) in comparison to even one of the dragons. Now multiply that by 5. The prof may have meant well, but in this case, he’s just like friends and relatives you and I know who give you advice that does more harm than good. You may get new investors in the future, but one thing you will have a hard time coming across is the combined business know-how of 5 very successful people, which in my opinon is worth far more than a “small” sum of $200,000.By the way, who do you think is the one really taking the risk, you or the dragons? Your business is not something that somebody else can’t copy and improve on further. I hope that your business does succeed for the long term. Make a promise never to let another “Dr. Norrie” sabotage you again.
Cody @ November 23rd, 2006 at 2:39 pm

Hello,

I just watched the show last night and am very dissapointed in how you guys just blew away your investors. The dragons were trying to take you for a ride wanting 50% of the company. However, in this case I believe that the money wasn’t the most important part of the deal. You guys had a chance to get advice from some very rich and successful business men. One of them making a fortune in the internet industry. Your teacher is just simply a tool. For him to start beaking the dragons because of them not having a business degree. Come on. That is ridiculous. He knew that he had to hold on to you because you are his only chance of him not being a failure. And knew that if the dragons went in then he would lose you. Thus staying as a horrible failure. I wonder what kind of car he drives. Most likely a rusted out 86 Honda Civic. With all honesty as an internet business owner I have no idea what you were thinking. Obviously school taught you nothing. Not only have you lost your 200 K but you also wasted money going to some business school. As long as you let that scum bag run your meetings I hope you fail horribly.

Thanks,
Cody
Joel Vitorino @ November 23rd, 2006 at 2:49 pm

Hey guys, I’m a Ryerson student also, and when i seen the episode, i was really pleased to see fellow Ryerson students get the deal from the dragons!

HOWEVER, i think you guys should of thought more about it, and should have said no to the $200 000. Sure you guys are just starting up, but your professor was right. Those guys are Venture Capitalist, hence why they are considered MOGULS!!!!

Those guys would have bee reaping the benefits off your great invention. Its a good idea that you start it on your own, and hope something like Youtube and Google happens..

Good Work Guys…
Lee 'buzz' Liu @ November 23rd, 2006 at 3:37 pm

It seems that many of you seem to think that James Norrie is simply a professor and nothing beyond that. I think that only goes to show exactly what you can get from 3 minutes of edited clippings. CBC obviously has much more of a duty to make the dragons look in a better light than our advisor, and that’s what you saw.

James was an entrepreneur, ran and still runs successful businesses, and since some people seem to care a great deal, James is quite wealthy himself — definitely not merely a professor. Not that it matters but Jim Treliving is not the only one who has a private jet.

If you carefully read some of the responses above, anyone who knows James in person would gladly vouch for him.

If you also think about it, why are there cameras in a strategic board meeting anyway? We all thought they’d tape the signing, presenting the check and leave. Instead, they taped our entire strategic plan for the next 12 months and we couldn’t do anything about it.

Everyone says we should’ve fought for the money. There are a lot of things worth fighting for. Personally, I think we all stayed silent because deep down intuitively, we’ve all felt that it was no longer worth fighting. Kevin O’Leary mentioned this too on the show last night about how we stayed silent meant a lot. I think he was right. I didn’t realize it at the time, but in hindsight, that made a lot of sense. I think the dragons sensed this too and decided to pull out.

Since the taping till that day in the boardroom, there was very little room for negotiation. Much of the deal was their way or the highway, though I suspect this has more to do with their legal counsel than the dragons themselves. Since at the time, we felt we needed the money, we accepted just about everything. Only until the legal bill arrived (about 2 days prior to the meeting in the boardroom), did we realize what we were actually getting and what we were giving up for it.

As for the money, what they didn’t show on TV was that the legal bills for both the dragon’s side as well as our side of the deal (yes, we had to pay for both, but that’s just reality), eats away almost a quarter of the $200,000, after taxes.

While it’s great to show a check (which wasn’t really certified as you saw on TV) of $200K on TV, the reality of it was that the check would’ve been torn up anyway and we would’ve been given the real check (which would’ve been certified), after legal fees. We were well aware of this from the start but just wanted to highlight that for people who may not know that’s how the cookie crumbles in terms of investment deals.

As for burning bridges, we didn’t feel we burned any with any of the dragons. Robert met us a week ago and kindly offered us some advice about dealing with media exposure (good or bad). He also made it very clear that there were no hard feelings on either side.
Tim Wells @ November 23rd, 2006 at 4:31 pm

Guys, you had better repudiate what the Professor said on that show, as this will spin out of control.
http://www.insidethecbc.com/shows/dragons-den/denswipe/
I happened to have taped the show, and I watched The Showdown several times. James Norrie obviously felt very THREATENED by the Dragon’s, and he lost it. The way he was leaning over them, making insults, talking about business degrees, etc. Totally uncool. Actually, kinda crazy.
If you look at the faces of the Dragons, you can see they are restraining themselves, as they know the camera’s are there.

Don’t think you are the next Google. Whatever you guys do will be COPIED OVERNIGHT by the big players, so whatever you guys do, you better move quick, or it will be all over.

But save face, and get James Norris to apologize about making comments about “private jets” and the rest of it. That is none of his business, and he made it sound like the guy was spending “company money” on a jet.
Don’t let the ugliness created by James Norris tarnish your company.
Guys with attitudes like that always fail in business…always. He’s got a problem..
Tim Wells @ November 23rd, 2006 at 4:37 pm

Just read your above post about the CBC. Its not coming across very well. The Dragons were very offended by what happened in that meeting. And are you also saying that James Norrie owns and uses a private jet? If that’s the case, why didn’t he put up the 200K himself?

Just be very cautious about what you are saying, you are in the spotlight now, and people are going to start checking everything very carefully.
Steven Gillan @ November 23rd, 2006 at 5:17 pm

Hello,

I was very impressed with your concept and execution of your business when I first seen the original program. However, I really think that there is A LOT more to the story after that deal was struck.

I am sure that it is very valuable to have your former instructor act as a liason for you especially when starting out. However, I find it very disheartening seeing his influence in a day to day operation, atleast it looked that way in the meeting on TV. I recognized he said that he was not invested due to a conflict of interest, which is noble, however, I don’t understand why he was even involved in this meeting. If he has no say in the company, then why is he pushing his vision? It just didn’t seem to make sense that he was lecturing in your meeting. I am sure that it was a long meeting and a lot was done leading up to it, but really, I would rather see you guys rely less on his input and more on what he taught you.

To indicate that you were not impressed with the lack on contact with the Dragons until the deal was officially done is crazy. If I was the VC, I wouldn’t be involved until I know that the deal is for sure, which is when the lawyers and money are out the way. It looks like you guys thought that the meetings and deals would start the day after the handshake.

Overall, I had a funny feeling that this catch-up segment had some “buyers remorse” it looked like a change of heart happened and really didn’t want the investment or partnership. This meeting and the result seemed very convenient to me.

I think next investment, bring your mentor so the investors can meet the real person that dictates direction for the company.

I think your idea is very unique at well timed, and the exposure has already compensated for the lost capital anyway.

SG
Jonnie @ November 23rd, 2006 at 7:02 pm

I know enough about television to know that what was screened last night isn’t necessarily representative of everything that happened in that boardroom. However, it doesn’t take a (business) degree to figure out that somewhere along the road something went wrong and for JobLoft to be successfull it is key that you learn from this and move on.

My primry feeling is that the crucial mistake happened when you agreed to sell 50% of the business for $200k in August. The strongest indication of this, is the simple fact that all five ‘dragons’ wanted in on the deal - so they must have all felt that this was a great deal - for them. And my assumption is that you felt the same way - afterwards - which explains why you all were so quiet when the professor terminated the deal with his tirade; it was exactly what you had hoped for.

Which brings me to the second point: Why is the professor still involved in your business? I understand he is your mentor, but this is the worst example of misplaced loyalty I have seen in a long time:
- Your mentor failed to prepare you adequatly for the first show - so you accepted a deal at too low a price.
- Your mentor made you look stupid with his tirade on television yesterday. Yes, you might have wanted this to happen, but I assure you that the level of unprofessional and rude behavior displayed by your mentor was uncalled for, and puts you in a very bad light.
- Your mentor might have scared a number of potential investor away in addition to the dragons - which is hurting your wallett.
In other words - the loyalty you are showing towards him is uncalled for - touching as it might be - but he is not repaying your trust in similar fashion so you need to move on without him. Good luck!
Biblot @ November 23rd, 2006 at 7:10 pm

Thanks for the update Buzz. Hahah, the real winners are you guys. Look at all the exposure you guys are getting, hits on the website and comments on here. The clip is on Youtube and there are comments over at CBC website as well. Good for business boys.
Curtis @ November 23rd, 2006 at 9:40 pm

haha @ Biblot:

“Good for business boys.”

Just like Michael Richards’ recent outburst will rocket him into super stardom
vt @ November 23rd, 2006 at 11:04 pm

yes u guys are really the winner’s u dont need the dragons with all the exposure u got on the show plus the outbreak of the professor wayyy too goo television wooo hooo
conanshammer @ November 23rd, 2006 at 11:24 pm

Unbelievable! Your prof blew off easy cash for everone there…….what a bozo!

The dragons were right …spend the 200k on marketing and sales. Within just a few months this 200k investment would have translated into many new fee paying clients. At that point the value of your company spikes and your 200 k is worth many times more.

Subsequent rounds of venture capital is where you cash in.

The dragons were about to show you all how to create a quick million or so by using the “dragons” connections and built up good will.

The 2006 prententious idiot of the year award goes to ,,,,,,,,
Sachin Arora @ November 23rd, 2006 at 11:43 pm

you guys and your company are amazing. you’ve got a brilliant business plan and those “dragons” were simply trying to rip you off. especially the bald one with the big mouth. you did a REALLY smart thing by sticking up for someone who was in your corner instead of a couple of millionaire show-boaters. i’m sure they wanted to help you guys make money, but only by infusing funds and not their time. you’ll be better off with a group of investors who want to legitimately want to see growth in business, and are willing to take less from you to do it. good luck to the four of you. i am absolutely sure that you’ll bounce back to a better place.
William T. @ November 24th, 2006 at 12:08 am

Hey guys. I have like everyone else, kept up with whats going on, and as far as what happened in the boardroom, If you guys felt it was important to take the dragons money and keep them as investors, I am sure you would have. You don’t seem like dummies. A point that I also want to make is that I think this blog is dumb, and unprofessional. I mean you don’t see the dragons explaining themselves to everyone do you? Thats because they are true businessmen and don’t have to answer to anyone. Who cares what the viewers of the show think. This is your business, not theirs.Explaining yourself to them is a waste of time and makes you look unprofessional. I am sure the people advertising for positions on your website don’t want to be part of any of this nonsense. Do yourselves a favour and act like true businessmen. Take this silly blog down before it hurts your company.

Shows over folks!!! Let these guys get back to work.
P.S. When you boys become huge, and you will, consider becoming investors yourselves and give me a shout. I have an idea for an internet business.
Good luck to the four of you.
William
Dee @ November 24th, 2006 at 12:27 am

One thing I’ve learnt is that true entrepreneurs never see the glass as half empty. You guys had already established your business before going on the show and now that you have been you are even more recognized. I like the fact that you guys are choosing to not look at the negative side of losing the deal, instead you are looking forward to running your company the way you want. Good Luck guys with or without the dragons you guys will make it.
George K @ November 24th, 2006 at 12:53 am

Your idea is great, and so is the site. I must congratulate you all on that.

With all due respect, from what I saw, this was all intentional and you had second thoughts about the deal. amd had your professor hijack the meeting, slur insults amd innuendos, to anger the dragons into backing out, which obviously worked. Your reaction, or lack of, told me all I needed to know. Seen this before in my own dealings with the business world.

In the business world, most mergers/buyouts/acquisitions/deals are usually subject to a breakup fee, and your prof knows that. Although the dragons are sharks, they were still taking a risk with this venture regardless. 200,000 is peanuts, but there conncetions are priceless. That really should have been the dealmaker, not the money.

No doubt, if that was me in there, a lawsuit would have been launched on the spot. Plenty of taped evidence to support it as well. Integrity is important in business, and any prof with a “business degree” knows that you dont alter plans when an agreement has been reached. Sorry guys, but even from reading your blog you had second thoughts and wanted the outcome you got.

The stench is overpowering. Good luck to all you guys. Hope you make it.
Allan Sorensen @ November 24th, 2006 at 2:56 am

The fundamental issue is that you guys misrepresented yourselves when you entered into the deal without revealing your “other boss”.
It was shocking to see how dishonest you were about where the buck stops.
Obviously, anyone would be surprised to shake hands with one group, and then find out later that the person missing is the one who really yeilds the power (and he disagrees!).
Outrageous.
You’re no Google, guys.
Anthony @ November 24th, 2006 at 5:25 am

Question: How much would it cost you guys to get this publicity if you didn’t go on the show? More than $200,000?

Question: Have you read the background’s on the Dragons that were at the table for the signing? A bit more impressive than the professor’s aren’t they?

Question: Wouldn’t you rather have 5 Dragons and the professor on the team instead of just the professor? If the professor is half connected as the Dragons are, wouldn’t it still be better to have a balance of connections and business experience they all bring to the table?

Question: Have you watched Venture before? The taping of the meeting was no different than what they do on Venture and I can’t count how many times they have taped a board meeting conversation. And I can’t count how many times the cameras have been asked to be removed from the meeting room due to the topic of the meeting. If you didn’t feel right about having them in the meeting, I am sure CBC would have left if you asked them to. Although I am limited to what CBC shows me, I do think that they were there for the ceremony of handing over the cheque and not aware of the direction the meeting was going to go in.

Question: In August when the Dragons mentioned that they wanted 50% because you guys needed mentoring and leadership, why didn’t you mention the professor then? I am sure the Dragons read your business plan and most business plans include a section on advisors, lawyers, etc. Was he mentioned there? If the professor thought that this was a bad deal, why didn’t he make attempts over the next couple months to work with the Dragons to get the deal cancelled?

Question: The professor was really clear that he couldn’t invest in the company due to a conflict of interest, but isn’t being in that meeting room also a conflict of interest? Or having him as a Director within the company (I believe that’s what CBC mentioned his roll was)? If not, and if you valued his opinion why wasn’t he at the show in August or even mentioned in the show? Or was he and CBC edited out?

Question: If the legal fees where the reason to break the deal with the Dragons and you had the fees 2 days before the meeting, why not be men and tell the Dragons before the media showed up that you wanted out?

Question: Although this was just an observation through the lens of CBC, but it looked like you were as surprised as the rest of us that the cheque was ripped up. If you had second thoughts about the direction things were going, you probably should have worked it out with the Dragons in private. Don’t you think so?

Question: When you accepted the deal didn’t you think that there would be some legal fees to close the deal? Or did you think they would just give you the cash with no strings attached? If that’s the case, you should also get rid of the professor as a teacher since he forgot to teach you about contracts.

Question: Doesn’t it say something about the Dragons (Robert in this case) when they still meet with you after a deal goes as sour as this? That to me shows character for someone as important and busy as Robert to still find time to meet with you and to share some words of wisdom. Just think about how much that visit is worth in dollars.

Comment: Most VCs want it done their way or it is the highway. During the 90s many Canadian companies went looking for VC cash and found themselves in the Valley because the VCs wanted the companies in their backyards so to keep an eye on them.

Comment: Don’t forget, you set the price of your company at $200,000. Although the Dragons wanted 50% of the company and turned down your counter offer of 30%, you didn’t come back to them with what 50% of your company was worth to you. The Dragons wanted 50% of the company to ensure that their investment had the right leadership, but they didn’t say anything about increasing the value of your company. That is where this deal went sour, you didn’t counter with what you thought 50% was worth. If your company was worth the fight it would have been worth the fight to get more cash from the deal and to possibly loose the deal altogether.

Comment: Those that knew Charles Manson in the 60s would also vouched for him. Not saying that the professor is Manson, but simply stating that people’s opinions and perspectives can be blurred especially when someone has an influence on the people.

In closing, everyone seems focused on the $200,000. You were getting more than $200,000 in the deal. As many people have pointed out, you were also getting the value of experience and connections from the Dragons. What isn’t being pointed out is the publicity you got from CBC for just being on the show. Take a few minutes and research how much it would cost your company to do a 10 to 20 minute national advertising spot on a given station. That’s what you got out of being on the show in August. Then you got another 5 minutes the other night which has given you more publicity than you could have dream of due to the professor.

Also, do you think that the cash flow would have ended at $200,000? And at $40,000 pre Dragon it wouldn’t take much to buy them out one at a time.

No matter what we saw the other night, we all did hear the personal attacks on the Dragons and we all saw the facial reactions everyone had in the meeting room. If the Dragons lashed out by personally attacking the professor, the shame on CBC for editing it out and shame on the Dragons, but us in TV land only saw the professor stoop to that level. What does an education have to do with business when someone has already proven themselves over and over? Why use the word “measly”, especially when you went to them for the cash in the first place? Why attack Jim for flying in on his personal jet so he can attend the meeting? He showed up when two other Dragons weren’t at the table and he did it on his on personal dime did he not? If so, figure out how much that cost him to do that especially with where gas prices are. Doesn’t this say something about your professor? Who cares about his credentials when he starts personally attacking those who have been asked to help out.

TV and the media can edit the show to suite their needs which is ratings, and what I got out of their presentation the other night is a professor that was scared of loosing his control and grip over you all so he came out swinging. And on top of that swinging below the belt by attacking the Dragons at a personal level. While this was going on, I saw the owners of the company just sit there and let this happen on national TV.
hm @ November 24th, 2006 at 5:43 am

There are valid points in many of the posts listed here. Though it cannot be denied that the media we are exposed to is filtered and more often than not, biased, the real issue is whether or not the outcome of this deal was a good business move. Unless ALL of the facts have been presented there are very few individuals in the audience that can draw definite conclusions. Two things are certain though, one, blame shifting won’t benefit anyone and two, there is always two sides to every story. It is all about choice after all and as far as I’m concerned each side had two choices. This outcome is based on the choices and motives of each party. We naturally take the action that benefits us the most and this is a classic example of that.

As Lee mentioned, James Norrie is “not merely a professor” but a successful entrepreneur as well. I agree that his mannerism and approach to the deal, as unfair as it was, was very unprofessional, especially the personal insults. We can’t ignore that the Dragon’s threw some insults of their own in response, so wouldn’t that make them unprofessional too? In any case it’s not a smart business move to insult your investors, but as for Norrie’s actions “ruining” this deal…Jobloft ultimately called the shot on that one and they decided that trusting the judgment of someone who’s been there from the very beginning would be more beneficial to them. This is NOT wrong. (Know the character personally before you make judgment; even the most successful professionals, including ourselves, have had shoddy moments.)

The dragons and J. Norrie are all very intelligent and business savvy individuals, and I’m sure they’ve all burned some bridges, built new ones, used existing ones etc., at some point in their lives but that’s what has made them into the successful people that they are today. “Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment.” (Jim Horning). As I said before, we naturally take the action we perceive to be the most beneficial to our success whether it be profit or personal gratification. The best business decision isn’t always clean and clear cut and all things considered, the Joblofters should know about their business the most.

To the guys with the orange ties: there will always be critics every step along the way; just be smart, keep your goals in check, your eyes on the prize and hold your ground gentlemen, there’s a world of investor opportunity out there and you guys have a great concept. Congratulations on making it this far and all the best in the future!
Mark @ November 24th, 2006 at 10:46 am

I’m not convinced that you’ve learned all of the right lessons, yet.

I don’t fault you for staying with your professor who is clearly passionate about your success. I believe that both JobLoft and Dr. Norrie have made several careless decisions in how you responded to the Dragons and handled the media attention.

First, it is clear that there was a lack of common understanding between board members going into the meeting and Dr. Norrie was the only one to speak up about it. A common vision for your company and how any money is to be used is critical going into a negotiation. I don’t believe you need any post-secondary education to know that.

Second, managing bad media by laying blame doesn’t solve the problem, it describes it in a different way. So, you’re no further ahead. Then, to suggest that the people behind television have a magical way of doing things to make others look bad will guarantee that they won’t be answering your call when you need them. And now that your comments are secured in perpetuity on the web, you can bet other media organizations will take note.

Third, it doesn’t matter how the media portrayed you, you need to work with the message that the viewers have, and the viewers can tell that an apology is owed to members of the Dragons. Why? Not because your vision was not clearly communicated; not because you didn’t like the deal; it is because Dr. Norrie hurled *several* personal insults at members of the Dragons - in fact, he came out swinging and issued a final blow before walking out of the room. You didn’t apologize in your post when you had the chance. Opportunity missed.

Finally, businesses come and go; you carry your reputation for life. You don’t need the media for that because people talk. I’m sure the Dragons are well connected, trusted and respected and that means that long before the CBC piece went to ari, the Dragons were talking about you to others in the business.

While I understand why you stuck by Dr. Norrie, his style is a liability. While his ideas may be key to the success of your business, his mightier-than-thou attitude will get around and will scare away the money. I can foresee a time when VCs may be interested on the condition that Dr. Norrie is out of the picture.

I hope there is still some VC interest in you because I believe that you’re living on borrowed time.
marcarc @ November 24th, 2006 at 11:28 am

The best thing about this incident is that it shows what a good many boardrooms look like. People in business have as big an ego as any athlete-if they’ve come that far. For a group of kids just out of school you should be congratulated. Anybody that expects a young kid right out of school is going to jump up and challenge their former professor or a bunch of millionaire investors is simply putting too many expectations on a person. It takes years to build that kind of moxy.

It’s something like this that will ingrain those lessons though. The professor was out of line with some comments, but from seeing the show I don’t doubt the investors may have been as well. I didn’t see the original show, but if they have controlling interest they have every right to dictate where and how the capital should be used. It’s not surprising they’d want to tackle employers first, that’s where your paycheque is coming from. You aren’t making money from the job seekers, so don’t waste your time with that (now). Selling to employers brings in the money, and in turn these guys will help sell your site to job seekers. ALWAYS market to the people who are paying for your product FIRST. Say you hardly get any job seekers…at least you still have a paycheque and can always modify the site, even using it in some way to ADVERTISE those stores, say with coupons, advertising, or even finding commonalities with these businesses and providing internal businesses services. Knowledge is power, and anybody at your site is a prospective customer as well as job seeker.

Just a word of advice, if you are wasting your

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